1)"Progressive wing of Democratic Party." So, Bernie Sanders, AOC, Elizabeth Warren, who are the only ones talking bread and butter economic issues?? Or the Identity Politics folks who care about civil rights? Or ???
2) What is "mainstream culture"? No gay marriage? Restrictive abortion laws? No trans athletes in competitive sports? Traditional 1950s marriage and gender roles? This is not a useful distinction until we get down to what it actually means to these folks.
3) What is a centrist Democrat these days? What about centrists will appeal to the Gen X-ers? Is "third way" related at all to the Third Way folks from the Bill Clinton era?
4) And it would help to understand whether Ro Khanna's work trying to get into the rural US and enact changes that actually helped people who have been abandoned in small towns with factory closures and such fits the bill.
Or ??
5) What is the actual message that you both think WILL shift this group, because all I'm hearing is what isn't happening. These are serious questions, and I'm not trying to bait anybody. But I'm having a hell of a time drawing conclusions that might be useful.
Bernie and AOC are not the only ones talking about working class issues. Beto O'Rourke has been doing it for years and Beto has a high enough testosterone level to talk about maternal fatality, reproductive issues and abortion. Rural voters. Immigration - Beto had a plan and if he lived in any other state but Texas, he would of finished his second term as POTUS by now and an immigration plan would have been in place. Aren't Civil rights and voting rights still important? I was around during the Bill Clinton era and I don't know what "the third way" is? Perhaps we label things too much? Progressive. Centrist. I'm a liberal, feminist democrat who refuses to label herself as anything other than that b/c if I do, it puts me in a box with a label. I believe labels have divided the Democratic party into factions and when we are divided, we lose - that seems to be apparent.
I like Beto. The point here is not that I am labeling people or positions, it's that the guy from Third Way is lecturing on what everybody else needs to change, and never suggesting what we need to DO. So I am highly suspicious of the lecture, and find it useless in terms of serious guidance. That is the entire point.
I hear you, Kevin. I didn't mean to indicate you were labeling, this is the world we've been living in and I am tired of the labels. I am trying to understand this male exodus as well and as I said in my recent post to Mike and Lucas, I don't think this issue is being drilled down enough in the polling. Too many questions left unresolved. Take a look at that post and lmk what you think. Who is the guy from, Third Way?
Hey Kevin. I just read a piece by "Third Way" and I agree. The PC language has pushed too liberals away from their Democratic base. As a feminist, I have raised both eyebrows at such terms as "chest feeding," "pregnant people, "birthing person/inseminated person." These terms eliminate a woman completely from the conversation. Back when Oprah was pushing the "pregnant man" I objected. Why? B/c if you have ovaries and are in the midst of transitioning, you are a woman. Basic anatomy and physiology: men are not born with ovaries. None of this means that transsexuals' cannot be parents. If a man who transitions to woman and is transplanted with ovaries becomes pregnant, then Oprah can make public this miracle. The term "Latinx" I believe came from far left white progressives. Idk what this has to do with men leaving the party, tho. I still think it's a deeper issue.
I'm female from birth, although you can't tell from my name... I really dislike identity politics. REALLY dislike it. I was a founding member of the Women's Union back in 1971 at U of I at Chicago, and really active in a bunch of the civil rights movements back then. I also ran the Draft and Military Counseling office for men of draft age, and returning vets from the Vietnam War. Lots more, but the point for me is this. We can't be based on a complaint or victim culture and we've forgotten how to just kick butt for equal rights--and economics. For everybody. Acknowledging the particularly egregious stuff, but not making the politically correct language the focus. It would be good if people stopped using the term "progressives" for the identity politics/language aspect of the party, because the people I see as progressives are focused on economics, not identity. Which is why I'm really annoyed that the Third Way folks seem to be throwing crap in the game. I'm old and out of patience.
A lot of men (generically) still have issues with women because culture and sex roles, and vice versa. It gets in the way. And there are legitimate issues with minority civil rights and women's rights that are not resolved or are under attack--like bodily autonomy. I'm perfectly open to whatever they believe are men's issues, but it's not clear what they believe they are or how they should be addressed. All I'm hearing is grievance.
So I want to know if we are actually all pulling in the same direction, and what the men who feel disenfranchised want, expect, or need. Then we can talk. Otherwise, it's just throwing shit against each other, and I'm done with that.
And as I noted above, Third Way Democrats like Bill Clinton STOPPED focusing on the economic, working class issues and shifted to creating a party steeped in corporate capitalism. They wanted to appeal to suburban housewives--and to retain their base, THEY created identity politics. And it will kill us. So forgive me if I don't take this crap seriously. The THIRD WAY Democrats created this and fostered it, and now they want to make it about the admittedly hideous language that arose from their refusal to make it about the economics. That's why they aren't saying what they want instead. Still committed to corporate capitalism and oligarchy because that's where the money is coming from.
And why the Democratic "centrists" who lost twice to Trump are refusing to support Beto, AOC, Bernie Sanders, and Mamdani in NY. So spare me the bullshit about language (which actual progressives DO NOT USE) and men's interests. 90% of "men's interests" are rooted in fixing the economics in this country, and if Third Way "centrists" are not onboard with that, they have nothing to say that I am interested in.
So, the Dem party is hemorrhaging male voters - do I have that right? According to the math, seems like I do. Now the question becomes why? Why are men more attracted to the MAGA alpha side of politics? Are we Democratic women emasculating our Democratic/liberal men by demanding (and dying for) reproductive freedom - a battle fought and won in the 1960's that we find ourselves demanding again in 2025? What is the demographic breakdown of these men that were polled? What was the class background? College? High School? Trade school? I don't know but what I will say is this: in my dating years I mostly dated outside of my race (white) b/c I grew up with a white MAGA father and I refused to ever live with that mindset again. During those years, I found that a lot (not all by any means) white liberal men kept their racism under wraps. Surreptitious racism (surreptitious sexism as well). What is it about the world of Margaret Atwood's "Gilead" that is attracting men to it? I'd like to see the demographic breakdown of men who are signing up for that world seemingly en masse because I think it's more than a "lack of testosterone in the democratic party" as much as it might be a lack of testosterone/self confidence in these men. Gentlemen: where is your fight? What is it exactly that is stopping you from grabbing your sword and shield and marching down the battlefield? Allow me to elaborate: last year I was canvassing and I stopped at a Democratic aligned home and we were having a nice discussion. The male (maybe 45 not incapacitated) indicated that he used to be a member of the town Dem committee (as am I) and do what I was doing, so I asked him to join me. His response? "Oh I'm too scared to do that. I got MAGA friends which is why I'm moving to California." To say I was both stunned and insulted is minimizing my response. There I was, a 5'2" 67 year old lady fighting for any piece of democracy I can hold onto and this man is smiling, telling me he was scared. Frightened. Where was his testosterone? Are you freaking kidding me? When I was 20 years old, I was out with a Black gentlemen and another couple in a small town bar in Oyster Bay, Long Island. At one point the lights went on and off and before I knew it, all 3 of my companions were pushing me out of the bar and into the car. It wasn't until we got home that I was told the reason: a gang of white men were going to hold me down, rape me at knife point and make my boyfriend watch. Is this the kind of MAGA alpha energy white men in particular are attracted to? Is this the testosterone they want? When it comes down to peer pressure, white men cave one to the other and frankly, I'm over it. The truth is, I have seen more testosterone in Black and Hispanic men than I have in white men. Maybe someone can explain this to me? While I respect Lukas and remember him from your LP days, Mike, the question of why men are leaving the democratic party needs to be drilled down on more because to push it back on the women in the party is BS. Bernie and AOC are not the only ones talking working class issues: Gallegeo, Beto, Newsom, Crow, Moskowitz, Frost, Murphy, Jeffries, etc., we have a whole list of Democratic men with plenty of testosterone who aren't 80 years old but those young guys with testosterone get ignored and why? Because far left men are focused on the least testosterone filled old white man out there whose already had one heart attack and the rest who are leaving are focused on MAGA. Really? What of the women: Jasmine Crockett? Which demographic of men are frightened of her? Hillary Clinton? Kamala Harris? Racism and sexism will always be the underlying factors. I am open to this conversation but in the polling, it needs to be drilled down on some more.
I worked myself up through working hard doing jobs that were below my high school education but I kept working up until I got licensed as a broker without a college education. Unfortunately, most businesses want college degrees now instead giving right school kids an Opportunity to show they can learn difficult skills.
Dems are hemorrhaging nen, not "voters." We must talk andout men and women differeintly because the data shows it to bevtrue. "Bro" culture alienates many women. What do you propose to keep women from being pushed to the bottom of society by Trump anti -DEI, and ny being stripped of reproductive Healthcare.
Are young men also willing to fight with us for that? If not, are we better off letting those men go and focusing on brining in more Independents + GOP males
3. Resentful of women making indeoemdent choices,being leaders.
3. Tgey think their problems must be fixed by somebody else. They aten't going to college but youngbwomen are.They seem to assume no responsibility of their own.
So, I say this with respect to everyone here and being a long time Dem activist on the ground. I can also confirm it’s not a perception issue. The Democratic Party has an issue with male voters of any age.
Before 2025, if you went to a Dem Party meeting on the local level and said you wanted to hone in on the mental health crisis with men in this country. Or said you wanted to talk about men’s issues of any kind. You’d get eye rolls and hesitation. You’d get lectures about how all men are innately toxic, privileged, and scared to let go of power. You’d have to spend at least forty percent of the conversation promising you understand women have had it worse.
In 2024, if you went to the Who We Serve section of the DNC website. It listed out every identity group you could imagine. Women had their own section. There was not a section for men.
The Dem Activist base built a revulsion to even tackling men’s issues. I despise Trump but I don’t like hearing people say, “Don’t men realize Trump doesn’t actually care about them?!”
Maybe he doesn’t, but at least he says he does. The Dem Base and many of its elected officials made it seem as if us toxic and privileged men are the enemy.
Men make up nearly half of the voting population, right? Our votes count just as much as anyone else’s. Which means, our issues need to be addressed too. Not at the expense of anyone else’s issues.
To add to my point. This is what happens when an almost entire political party takes on an oppressor vs oppressed view and applies to every situation under the sun and to every person. We end up alienating half of the voting population.
When one of the two major political parties says to an entire gender, “You don’t have problems, you are the problem” while a mental health and poverty crisis runs rampant among them. You’d better believe a bunch of them will vote for the asshole like Trump. Because at least Trump isn’t acting like he looks down on them.
And keep in mind folks, I proudly volunteered for Harris’ campaign. I knocked doors for her. I’m a proud lifelong democrat.
I hate identity politics. When did the Democrats stop addressing the elephant in the room--economics? I would say when the Third Way Democrats shifted the conversation and focused on big donors and corporate capitalism, in the 1990s.
Got it. Serious question: Do you have suggestions on what will actually make a difference to this group--Gen Z males? An economic message? What other problems will they resonate with addressing?
Looking for the concrete, big tent accommodating answer....Any thoughts?
These "manly MAGA men" are going to need all the strength they can dredge up in order to protect their wives and children from the chaos that they've created.
Interesting, but it seems these young men have a problem with not being completely in charge anymore. Being masculine isn’t bad. Seeing masculinity as being condescending to women just because they are men and therefore better is what’s bad. And that’s too bad for them. We are not going back. Aspirational economic agenda, yes. But they have a skewed view of who is the Democratic party that they get from social media. Republicans are much more elitist. Joe Rogan is an idiot. Frankly, I’m not sure we want these young men back after listening.
I really need a translation/ glossary here.
1)"Progressive wing of Democratic Party." So, Bernie Sanders, AOC, Elizabeth Warren, who are the only ones talking bread and butter economic issues?? Or the Identity Politics folks who care about civil rights? Or ???
2) What is "mainstream culture"? No gay marriage? Restrictive abortion laws? No trans athletes in competitive sports? Traditional 1950s marriage and gender roles? This is not a useful distinction until we get down to what it actually means to these folks.
3) What is a centrist Democrat these days? What about centrists will appeal to the Gen X-ers? Is "third way" related at all to the Third Way folks from the Bill Clinton era?
4) And it would help to understand whether Ro Khanna's work trying to get into the rural US and enact changes that actually helped people who have been abandoned in small towns with factory closures and such fits the bill.
Or ??
5) What is the actual message that you both think WILL shift this group, because all I'm hearing is what isn't happening. These are serious questions, and I'm not trying to bait anybody. But I'm having a hell of a time drawing conclusions that might be useful.
Help me out.
Bernie and AOC are not the only ones talking about working class issues. Beto O'Rourke has been doing it for years and Beto has a high enough testosterone level to talk about maternal fatality, reproductive issues and abortion. Rural voters. Immigration - Beto had a plan and if he lived in any other state but Texas, he would of finished his second term as POTUS by now and an immigration plan would have been in place. Aren't Civil rights and voting rights still important? I was around during the Bill Clinton era and I don't know what "the third way" is? Perhaps we label things too much? Progressive. Centrist. I'm a liberal, feminist democrat who refuses to label herself as anything other than that b/c if I do, it puts me in a box with a label. I believe labels have divided the Democratic party into factions and when we are divided, we lose - that seems to be apparent.
I like Beto. The point here is not that I am labeling people or positions, it's that the guy from Third Way is lecturing on what everybody else needs to change, and never suggesting what we need to DO. So I am highly suspicious of the lecture, and find it useless in terms of serious guidance. That is the entire point.
I hear you, Kevin. I didn't mean to indicate you were labeling, this is the world we've been living in and I am tired of the labels. I am trying to understand this male exodus as well and as I said in my recent post to Mike and Lucas, I don't think this issue is being drilled down enough in the polling. Too many questions left unresolved. Take a look at that post and lmk what you think. Who is the guy from, Third Way?
Got it. Agree. :-)
Hey Kevin. I just read a piece by "Third Way" and I agree. The PC language has pushed too liberals away from their Democratic base. As a feminist, I have raised both eyebrows at such terms as "chest feeding," "pregnant people, "birthing person/inseminated person." These terms eliminate a woman completely from the conversation. Back when Oprah was pushing the "pregnant man" I objected. Why? B/c if you have ovaries and are in the midst of transitioning, you are a woman. Basic anatomy and physiology: men are not born with ovaries. None of this means that transsexuals' cannot be parents. If a man who transitions to woman and is transplanted with ovaries becomes pregnant, then Oprah can make public this miracle. The term "Latinx" I believe came from far left white progressives. Idk what this has to do with men leaving the party, tho. I still think it's a deeper issue.
I'm female from birth, although you can't tell from my name... I really dislike identity politics. REALLY dislike it. I was a founding member of the Women's Union back in 1971 at U of I at Chicago, and really active in a bunch of the civil rights movements back then. I also ran the Draft and Military Counseling office for men of draft age, and returning vets from the Vietnam War. Lots more, but the point for me is this. We can't be based on a complaint or victim culture and we've forgotten how to just kick butt for equal rights--and economics. For everybody. Acknowledging the particularly egregious stuff, but not making the politically correct language the focus. It would be good if people stopped using the term "progressives" for the identity politics/language aspect of the party, because the people I see as progressives are focused on economics, not identity. Which is why I'm really annoyed that the Third Way folks seem to be throwing crap in the game. I'm old and out of patience.
A lot of men (generically) still have issues with women because culture and sex roles, and vice versa. It gets in the way. And there are legitimate issues with minority civil rights and women's rights that are not resolved or are under attack--like bodily autonomy. I'm perfectly open to whatever they believe are men's issues, but it's not clear what they believe they are or how they should be addressed. All I'm hearing is grievance.
So I want to know if we are actually all pulling in the same direction, and what the men who feel disenfranchised want, expect, or need. Then we can talk. Otherwise, it's just throwing shit against each other, and I'm done with that.
And as I noted above, Third Way Democrats like Bill Clinton STOPPED focusing on the economic, working class issues and shifted to creating a party steeped in corporate capitalism. They wanted to appeal to suburban housewives--and to retain their base, THEY created identity politics. And it will kill us. So forgive me if I don't take this crap seriously. The THIRD WAY Democrats created this and fostered it, and now they want to make it about the admittedly hideous language that arose from their refusal to make it about the economics. That's why they aren't saying what they want instead. Still committed to corporate capitalism and oligarchy because that's where the money is coming from.
And why the Democratic "centrists" who lost twice to Trump are refusing to support Beto, AOC, Bernie Sanders, and Mamdani in NY. So spare me the bullshit about language (which actual progressives DO NOT USE) and men's interests. 90% of "men's interests" are rooted in fixing the economics in this country, and if Third Way "centrists" are not onboard with that, they have nothing to say that I am interested in.
I had to stop when your guest refereed to the fucking TRAITOR as "authentically speaking." The fucking TRAITOR is a liar.
I hear you.
So, the Dem party is hemorrhaging male voters - do I have that right? According to the math, seems like I do. Now the question becomes why? Why are men more attracted to the MAGA alpha side of politics? Are we Democratic women emasculating our Democratic/liberal men by demanding (and dying for) reproductive freedom - a battle fought and won in the 1960's that we find ourselves demanding again in 2025? What is the demographic breakdown of these men that were polled? What was the class background? College? High School? Trade school? I don't know but what I will say is this: in my dating years I mostly dated outside of my race (white) b/c I grew up with a white MAGA father and I refused to ever live with that mindset again. During those years, I found that a lot (not all by any means) white liberal men kept their racism under wraps. Surreptitious racism (surreptitious sexism as well). What is it about the world of Margaret Atwood's "Gilead" that is attracting men to it? I'd like to see the demographic breakdown of men who are signing up for that world seemingly en masse because I think it's more than a "lack of testosterone in the democratic party" as much as it might be a lack of testosterone/self confidence in these men. Gentlemen: where is your fight? What is it exactly that is stopping you from grabbing your sword and shield and marching down the battlefield? Allow me to elaborate: last year I was canvassing and I stopped at a Democratic aligned home and we were having a nice discussion. The male (maybe 45 not incapacitated) indicated that he used to be a member of the town Dem committee (as am I) and do what I was doing, so I asked him to join me. His response? "Oh I'm too scared to do that. I got MAGA friends which is why I'm moving to California." To say I was both stunned and insulted is minimizing my response. There I was, a 5'2" 67 year old lady fighting for any piece of democracy I can hold onto and this man is smiling, telling me he was scared. Frightened. Where was his testosterone? Are you freaking kidding me? When I was 20 years old, I was out with a Black gentlemen and another couple in a small town bar in Oyster Bay, Long Island. At one point the lights went on and off and before I knew it, all 3 of my companions were pushing me out of the bar and into the car. It wasn't until we got home that I was told the reason: a gang of white men were going to hold me down, rape me at knife point and make my boyfriend watch. Is this the kind of MAGA alpha energy white men in particular are attracted to? Is this the testosterone they want? When it comes down to peer pressure, white men cave one to the other and frankly, I'm over it. The truth is, I have seen more testosterone in Black and Hispanic men than I have in white men. Maybe someone can explain this to me? While I respect Lukas and remember him from your LP days, Mike, the question of why men are leaving the democratic party needs to be drilled down on more because to push it back on the women in the party is BS. Bernie and AOC are not the only ones talking working class issues: Gallegeo, Beto, Newsom, Crow, Moskowitz, Frost, Murphy, Jeffries, etc., we have a whole list of Democratic men with plenty of testosterone who aren't 80 years old but those young guys with testosterone get ignored and why? Because far left men are focused on the least testosterone filled old white man out there whose already had one heart attack and the rest who are leaving are focused on MAGA. Really? What of the women: Jasmine Crockett? Which demographic of men are frightened of her? Hillary Clinton? Kamala Harris? Racism and sexism will always be the underlying factors. I am open to this conversation but in the polling, it needs to be drilled down on some more.
So basically these "men" only care about themselves. Make sense.
I worked myself up through working hard doing jobs that were below my high school education but I kept working up until I got licensed as a broker without a college education. Unfortunately, most businesses want college degrees now instead giving right school kids an Opportunity to show they can learn difficult skills.
Dems are hemorrhaging nen, not "voters." We must talk andout men and women differeintly because the data shows it to bevtrue. "Bro" culture alienates many women. What do you propose to keep women from being pushed to the bottom of society by Trump anti -DEI, and ny being stripped of reproductive Healthcare.
Are young men also willing to fight with us for that? If not, are we better off letting those men go and focusing on brining in more Independents + GOP males
What are "Masculine vakues?" I raised a son and a grandson, but they are male + Democrats. They don't resemt successful wonen.
So what "male values" are D3mocrats supposed to deliver.
Family values fir Trump = women sub9rdinate..Is that what young men want?
Apparently, not just young men. Read my post above.
So exactly how do young men define themselves.
What are their 5 Top priorities?
What did those soft Trump voters see in Trump?
What I have nern hearing from young men is:
1. Anti Trans, Anti- LGBTQ.
2. Anti woman-in-charge
3. Resentful of women making indeoemdent choices,being leaders.
3. Tgey think their problems must be fixed by somebody else. They aten't going to college but youngbwomen are.They seem to assume no responsibility of their own.
Family values focus, Please please explain how Rs focus on those issues. My take away is the loudest voice gets the attention.
So, I say this with respect to everyone here and being a long time Dem activist on the ground. I can also confirm it’s not a perception issue. The Democratic Party has an issue with male voters of any age.
Before 2025, if you went to a Dem Party meeting on the local level and said you wanted to hone in on the mental health crisis with men in this country. Or said you wanted to talk about men’s issues of any kind. You’d get eye rolls and hesitation. You’d get lectures about how all men are innately toxic, privileged, and scared to let go of power. You’d have to spend at least forty percent of the conversation promising you understand women have had it worse.
In 2024, if you went to the Who We Serve section of the DNC website. It listed out every identity group you could imagine. Women had their own section. There was not a section for men.
The Dem Activist base built a revulsion to even tackling men’s issues. I despise Trump but I don’t like hearing people say, “Don’t men realize Trump doesn’t actually care about them?!”
Maybe he doesn’t, but at least he says he does. The Dem Base and many of its elected officials made it seem as if us toxic and privileged men are the enemy.
Men make up nearly half of the voting population, right? Our votes count just as much as anyone else’s. Which means, our issues need to be addressed too. Not at the expense of anyone else’s issues.
To add to my point. This is what happens when an almost entire political party takes on an oppressor vs oppressed view and applies to every situation under the sun and to every person. We end up alienating half of the voting population.
When one of the two major political parties says to an entire gender, “You don’t have problems, you are the problem” while a mental health and poverty crisis runs rampant among them. You’d better believe a bunch of them will vote for the asshole like Trump. Because at least Trump isn’t acting like he looks down on them.
And keep in mind folks, I proudly volunteered for Harris’ campaign. I knocked doors for her. I’m a proud lifelong democrat.
I hate identity politics. When did the Democrats stop addressing the elephant in the room--economics? I would say when the Third Way Democrats shifted the conversation and focused on big donors and corporate capitalism, in the 1990s.
Got it. Serious question: Do you have suggestions on what will actually make a difference to this group--Gen Z males? An economic message? What other problems will they resonate with addressing?
Looking for the concrete, big tent accommodating answer....Any thoughts?
Family values..HE HAS ZERO FAMILY VALUES.....He lied about everything he said he was going to do...
Will "authentic" candidates ever included women?
Hard for me to say this, but many men do not want women in leadership roles.
These "manly MAGA men" are going to need all the strength they can dredge up in order to protect their wives and children from the chaos that they've created.
Self reflection. Are we capable?
Interesting, but it seems these young men have a problem with not being completely in charge anymore. Being masculine isn’t bad. Seeing masculinity as being condescending to women just because they are men and therefore better is what’s bad. And that’s too bad for them. We are not going back. Aspirational economic agenda, yes. But they have a skewed view of who is the Democratic party that they get from social media. Republicans are much more elitist. Joe Rogan is an idiot. Frankly, I’m not sure we want these young men back after listening.